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Jul 30, 2010

Can you see my butt crack?


Readers, today I'm going to challenge your sense of decorum and tolerance.  The easily offended might want to come back tomorrow.

Oh wise ones, what's your take on the ubiquitous men's saggy pant?  Does it bother you?   How about on, say, teen idol Zac Efron -- as close as we'll ever get to Troy Donahue, who never flashed his crack to the best of my knowledge, at least not in "Susan Slade."


Apparently the town of Flint, Michigan has had enough!  Get THIS!

Meanwhile in the Bronx (my hometown) they'll just have to live with it.

Apparently Japan has other problems...  (Hope this isn't anything obscene; I don't read Japanese but it looks pretty self-evident.)


Friends, isn't this just another case of young people wanting to show off their bodies and create a look of their own?  How concerned should we be?   Is it as a symbol of a larger breakdown of our society and/or respect for authority or just teens pushing our old generational outrage buttons?

I'm on the fence.  I used to find those sagger pants a little ridiculous but lately they look kind of cute to me, provided it's the pants that are sagging and not the ass underneath.  (Just a joke -- I am not saggy-ass-phobic.)

Haven't we been through this kind of generational outrage before?  Think back...women in PANTS!


The TWO-PIECE!!


The LOW-RIDER!!!


Life went on.

I see this look with increasing frequency in my uber-chic, over-art-galleried neighborhood and frankly, it nauseates me.


To my eye, the Thom Browne suit silhouette looks contrived at best but nobody seems to be up in arms about it --  I'm guessing it's because it has only been adopted by fashion-forward men who can afford a $4,000 suit.

But isn't it sort of the mirror image of this?


In 1000 words or less, please tell me how these are different and how they are similar.  Fans of ancient history may want to make reference to the thong flash that nearly brought down a presidency.


Please open your blue booklet and begin.

Saggy Butt Pants:  Yea or Nay?

61 comments:

  1. My 14yr old son wears sagging trousers and I don't see what the big deal is. sure, they look uncomfortable and goofy, but if that is what he wants to wear, then why not? He isn't hurting anybody, he is a clean-cut guy, but he just likes to sag.

    I think the town of Flint, MI has far bigger problems to worry about than the sagging trousers of its youth...

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  2. Yes, yes yes! Pure displacement, imho.

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  3. I don't love them, but who are they hurting? Seriously, if that's the worst form their rebellion takes be glad. I see boys walking home from the high school up the street and I laugh at how awkward their walk is. Eventually they'll get tired of being uncomfortable.

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  4. And Peter, look at all the unintended humor they provide us with. I laughed out loud when I saw a 20-something slide off a stool because his pants were so low he stepped on his cuff when pushing himself back from the lunch counter. I say enjoy!

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  5. Oh, and I don't get those Thom Browne suits and high waters either. Attention getting too.

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  6. I do think it looks ridiculous, and not even slightly sexy, but other than that I am content to enjoy the amusing spectacle. I am totally fascinated by maintenance, effort, and change in gait required for effective walking. There have been many fashions throughout history that have hobbled one's ability to run and jump (hobble skirts, high heels, foot binding, corsets, etc), and they seem preponderantly aimed at women. Obviously men have had a few fashions that hobble as well, though not so much in recent fashion. So it's interesting to see one now...

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  7. Hah! I never thought of the flood-pant suit as the mirror of the saggy pant ... good point, though.

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  8. I don't mind a little sag.. men generally don't wear their pants at their natural it tends to be a little lower. But I don't like to see the pant waist below the ass; that's just plain ridiculous. It's like those women who wear low riders (without a belt)/really short skirts and then proceed to keep pulling them up/down

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  9. oh, I forgot to mention the number of 'live action' crime shows on telly show these poor saggy trouser guys trying to run from the law, but just can't coz their crotch is at their knees!

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  10. I don't understand it. Why, oh why would anyone want to wear their pants so low that a slight brush can expose your bits to the wind? And how do you keep your pants up when you're wearing them below your butt? Isn't that what butts are for, to keep pants up? The flood pants suit is ridiculous and looks uncomfortable, but the butt crack pants are worse. Frankly, though, Paris Hilton's pictured outfit on this thread looks like it's straight from hookerville...

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  11. If someone wants to wear pants 12 sizes too large and spend the entire day trying to hold them up then fine but at least have the decency to wear a tent sized shirt to cover up the underwear showing.

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  12. Then again, not so long ago women wore shoes they could hardly walk in as a sign of high status: they didn't HAVE to walk, you see.

    I wonder if something similar is going on...

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  13. As long as the underwear covers the butt I'm not too concerned about it...I just remind myself that my boyfriend who wears his pants at about the 70's rise can easily beat them out of a job interview if it came down to pants (although he would get it anyway). After all, aren't boxers pretty similar in coverage to a 1960s mens' bathing suit? We'll all eventually be nudists so it doesn't really matter.

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  14. I don't mind sagging, although it can look ridiculous when the pants are actually falling off. Seems to me that Zac Ephron's crime is sagging with tighty whities--Isn't proper sagging is always done done with colored boxers?

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  15. Below-the-butt pants: yuck! (And what if the underwear is, um, less than clean?)

    Short pants: looks like they were in the dryer too long, but at least the wearer can walk in them.

    I don't know what it all means.

    Flint is just rearranging the deck chairs while the ship is sinking.

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  16. The "indecent exposure" look is one I see often. Frankly, it makes me LOL watching a guy walk down the street with his waistband below his butt cheeks and one hand holding onto a belt loop so that the pants don't drop to his ankles. Comical! Wouldn't it be easier to just go out in boxers and carry the pants? Maybe tying the legs around the waist? What, that's not cool? :-)

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  17. I just checked my email. Guess what Martha Stewart's Tip of the Day is? Stay-put pants!!!

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  18. Well, I'm with mom2five and Bratling on this one. I really, really can't stand seeing people's underpants or their butt cracks. That visible thong business borders on offensive to me, to tell you the truth. I remember when my sister was in high school (she graduated in 1970 or so), girls could not wear -- gasp! -- open-toed shoes! When I was in high school (I graduated in 1979), you could not wear sundresses -- nothing with straps. And no way could anyone wear shorts to school!

    What I can't stand are the really long, baggy "shorts" men wear. Adult men end up looking like little boys wearing their big brothers' clothes or, worse, clowns. Just the other day I saw some guy dressed in long, baggy plaid shorts pushing a stroller and I thought to myself, "I am so glad my father never dressed like that!"

    But, really. What harm does this do that it’s necessary to legislate it? I just think it’s funny that this sort of thing is happening to men this time. If only they could outlaw wearing hats indoors. THAT is something I could get behind!

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  19. But what would happen if WOMEN decided to do this? Okay I know with the low-riders there was the thong peek-a-boo, but what if women were wearing granny panties and doing this? The world would uprise. Rome would fall.The Leaning Tower of Pisa would come crashing down...some of the "underwear" that men wear are disgusting.

    I am also thinking that the underwear industry aka designer industry is thrilled about this. One more place to put their logo and have it be seen.

    As for me...I hate the look..I am old fashioned. I have a 26 year old son who did a bit of it in his teens...TEENS...that is how long this has been going on...over 11 years. Can't they find a new way to wear their pants?
    My son now wears a uniform...a blue uniform...with a gun. No saggy, baggy pants for him...he needs to chase after a few of the saggy, baggy pants more often then not. :)

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  20. I'm 26, this look pretty much started when I was in high school, and I think it's awful. I don't want to see butt crack--whether it's on a plumber, a pretty girl wearing super-low-rise pants, or a young guy who thinks he's "cool". And what is so great about having to pull your pants up and/or adjusting them all the time anyway? I'm trying to lose some weight and have to do that even with a belt and it grates on my nerves--I can't imagine why someone would WANT to do that...??? Maybe I'm just too old?

    As for the high-water pants, it makes them look less like they could afford a $4K suit and more like they had to rummage through the stuff at a thrift store and couldn't find anything in their size. Not a fan, although I suppose it makes those kids who just went through a growth spurt and haven't had the chance/funding to buy new pants feel better. :-)

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  21. I hate it. I hate seeing other peoples underwear (below the elastic, anyway), butt cracks or buttocks. It should just go away. The same way I hate too tight jeans on women that seperates their buttocks. Ick. I prefer to choose for myself when I want to look at people's behinds.

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  22. I'm just glad dear Paris HAD pants on in that photo? Isn't she (along with her pal Britney) one that likes to give us cooter shots from time to time? I may be mistaken...I can't keep my vapid blondes straight :-)

    On a more serious note, I would bet that the Flint issue relates to crime and gangs. I have no idea whether pant ordinances would help the situation, but I can undertand where they're coming from.

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  23. And I do have to fight to keep a straight face when I see a "youth" having to hold his pants up around the bottom of his butt. Said youth probably wouldn't care that a middle aged woman thought he looked like a joke. I wonder what female "youths" think about these guys? Parents of teen girls? Anyone? Anyone?

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  24. The saggy pants on young people is a stupid look but a little healthy rebellion is ok. Look at what teens were wearing in the 80's (including the punk rock crowd). The too short pants I don't get. At least the saggy pants boys are wearing underwear to cover themselves. I saw some young mothers sitting in a row watching their children play and every one of them had their crack showing because their pants were so low cut. Yuck!

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  25. It just looks so uncomfortable. Neither the floods or the sags float my sartorial boat. Just getting a mental image of what would happen if the two trends combined--a belt around the knees maybe? :-p

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  26. i work in a high school. sigh... the sagging is annoying. at least most of the guys who "sag" wear very long shirts so no underwear is seen. they can't walk, much less run. my objection to it is not so much style, but what it represents at our school, namely gang type behavior. some boys who choose that style are perfectly wonderful students, but they are perceived as something else due to their dress. true, we shouldn't judge a book by it's cover, but lots of people do. when you dress a certain way, you have to think about the image you are projecting. is that really the first impression you want to make? at school, the extremely loose fitting clothing raises concerns about concealed weapons. yes, i know, they can stash a weapon in a book bag too, but the guys who sag usually don't carry a book bag because that would suggest that they carry books...

    i fully admit that is stereotyping and generalizing. again, i feel sorry for the ones who are just doing it for style. however, when you are in a high school with 1500 students and you *know* some of them carry weapons, it is self preservation to try to figure out who is a threat and who isn't. appearance is the first line of defense.

    perhaps in other areas, fine, upstanding boys sag too. in our school, sagging is usually not a good sign.

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  27. I think it looks ridiculous. And some of these kids seem to FEEL ridiculous, having to pull their pants up constantly. It infringes on my space (my face!) when I'm sitting on the bus and these stylin' kids are standing in the aisle. Unfortunately for them (and me!) they often need their hands to hold on to the rail. One such kid didn't get the memo about not wearing boxers with a fly that opens. Still, I would be absolutely opposed to a law against this "style".

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  28. Being white kids from Iowa, my husband and I care a lot about street cred. (Do I need to write 'insert ironic tone' here for the uninitiated?) Anywho, this is what gets me about the ass-pants (and I don't like to see them on man or woman, but I ain't gonna put you in jail for it): what kind of street cred you got if you get into a fight but you can't fight cause you gotta hold your pants up?

    I see these guys running to catch the bus, holding their pants up with one hand. They are running slow, because their pants are practically around their ankles--not practical and not much in the way of street cred. My husband just bought new shorts and they come with strings in them to rig yourself up, so you can have your ass showing without holding your pants up, apparently. He needs to be initiated, trained in the art of ass-pants tying.

    But, I have a life and work and I need my hands. I wear clothing that does not require me to hold up my pants as I walk so I can carry things and small people as I walk. That is what is stupider about this style than other styles. The short pants on suits might be ugly, but the guy isn't holding them up to make them short--they came that way. Paris might have low riding pants, but she isn't pushing them down as she walks to keep them that way--they were made that way. I need my hand to do the work of my life. If I am so busy holding my pants down below my ass as fashion statement, my life has no meaningful work other than holding my pants and then I am an empty-headed fool for fashion.

    I have not noticed, as I meet these guys around town, a single one who can function without needing to do an awful lot of holding and adjusting just to do basic functions like walk. This, in my estimation, is far stupider than most fashion trends.

    Doesn't stupidity sort of punish itself?

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  29. OK, I live in a conservative Middle West suburban community where saggy pants exist, but don't seem to have gang connections, and they don't generally seem so extreme. I thought this was a passing fad 10 years ago! Boys are still doing this. Why? Who knows why boys do anything. Why do men wear their suits so tight? It looks stupid, but I guess it distinguishes the wearer in some way. I suspect that this tightness of clothing will filter into the mainstream as a more fitted look, and it is about time!

    Years ago a really, really out of shape guy used to mow a field shirtless with a walk behind mower, butt crack in full view, where passersby could see him. His pants hung awfully low below his stomach. It looked awful! And precarious. But I guess there is no law against doing this. Civilization survived, even if some of us were grossed out.

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  30. I think the saggy ass pants look ridiculous, but it's just clothes. I assume they will grown up and one day their children will laugh at how stupid dad looked in old photos. That being said there have been many times I have been really really tempted to give gravity a hand and pull someone's pants off, but in the small city in which I live it would undoubtedly make the news. "Fifty year old woman depants youth, story at 11." Seriously, it was the only thing that stopped me.

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  31. Great comments. I must say the whole security in the high schools things relating to dress is something I never thought about and makes a lot of sense...maybe.

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  32. My students often have saggy pants (I teach at a public university in NYC). It's means for them to express their youthful defiance of cultural sartorial norms and be bad *sses, but they all look the same, so I giggle. But they know that it's a casual look, and they clean up nice, so I don't think it matters much. What I am interested in is when my male students wear tight skinny jeans, and then sag them about 3 inches. I can see the utility in this!
    As for the high waters, I quite like the look for summer. I don't really think they are related, since the ankle isn't really a forbidden body part. The flood pant suit is a slightly irreverent take on the traditional buttoned up look. It mostly works on tall, thin men, but when it works, I think it works pretty well.
    Poor Flint Michigan!

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  33. Having been check to butt cheek with some very crude young men on the subway, I can't say I'm in favor of this exceedingly vulgar trend.

    Who said expressing oneself means abandoning all taste?

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  34. I think ultra-low pants are stupid when the wearer Has To Hold Them Up With One Hand, limiting other actions such as "fall prevention," etc. Also, I think high-waders look dorky, which is the nerdy version of stupid, I guess. Neither of these trends is for me.

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  35. I find it funny that everyone complains about baggy pants and no one says anything about the three-sizes-too-small jeans that kids on the opposite end of the spectrum like to squeeze themselves into.

    Mind, I personally believe that a large part of the uproar against these pants is due to a race/class issue more than a fashion one. After all, in many of the places calling for a 'ban' on baggy pants, they're worn predominately by minority youth. (Despite your pictorial evidence, Peter, I'm sure most people only equate baggy pants with the second to last photo.)

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  36. ABSOLUTELY NAY in the strongest possible terms.

    Pants that are too short make the wearer look clueless or too poor to afford properly fitted clothing. (And about that price tag: I work with someone who wears super expensive clothes and looks like a total bum.)

    The other pants have gang and violence connections.

    The diaper butt is more offensive to me than the floods. And as pointed out, not being able to safely cross the street without holding your droopy draws up is not only FUGLY, but ridiculously unsafe.

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  37. When my kids started high school (10+ years ago) they were issued a lengthy dress code. Among the items that puzzled us at the time: "No staples in shoes". Turns out kids were stapling the cuffs of their way-too-long pants to the backs of their sneakers to keep them from getting underfoot. I don't know what good it did anyone to prohibit this, but what I find interesting about it is the suggestion of hidden support structures. Maybe the look is really the product of careful draping and stitching?
    Urban legend has it that the saggy look is indeed gang related--it supposedly originated with gang members on the outside imitating their brethren in prison, where belts are not permitted and pants therefore sag.
    Finally, I drove past a lad the other day with pants at Flint's "Disorderly Conduct" line--and no discernible underwear. It appeared to be a rear-view only exhibition, but I was unwilling to stop the car for a closer look.

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  38. Originally from Houston, and having seen gangs wear them, I say no, they're offensive and agree with an earlier commenter on hiding weapons, etc. The short ones, yuck. Why??? I cannot stand low-rise pants, either, since most that wear them shouldn't. It boils down to common sense decorum. Maybe I am just getting old...

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  39. Uh, to clarify, the lad's pants were at half staff, so to speak. I was wearing a dress and plenty of underwear.

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  40. I still find this "look" absurd for all the many reasons others have listed -- and its longevity has only made it lose its sometime shock value. Maybe at first it was the equivalent of "mooning" the "man". But now it just looks like the wearer is dated and lacks imagination when it comes to their sartorial rebelliousness. Indeed you now have a popular song ridiculing the look whose refrain is "looking like a fool with your pants on the ground". I concur. As to male capris . . . eh, well, I guess if you are a cutting-edge NYC Beau Brummel, one must invest in nice socks. I've yet to see either look worn with any regularity here in Italy. Italians are very serious about their look, and rarely embrace "fads". Although I will say that lavender has been the color of choice for stylish men . . . so appealing.

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  41. Yes, yes! To race/class issue primarily re: growingrace. But also a fashion one. Racial sartorial policing has been explicitly elucidated in these here comments! Pixie's and Sassy Lassies' comments both conflated the look with a run-in with law enforcement. And even while Mermaid's was hedging her generalization, a simple sartorial choice was also conflated with danger in general! And class issues became especially enlightening, I thought, when Lisette made the very explicit connection that her boyfriend is more employable for simply wearing his pants higher? This mentality is exceeded by more broad-ranging race and class concerns, but it is fascinating the way sartorial decisions can make one guilty of crime, unemployability, stupidity, (and even sloth?) before any empirical evidence to indicate guilt! While the rest of us are simply better people for making the 'right' sartorial decisions?

    While I'm uncomfortable with the implicit request of the blog post to police style young men's style (even when it is literally being policed in Flint!)

    And yes! To examining the loosely analogous relationship between policing of women's sexuality and the policing of race and class implicit in the sagging debate! But is the answer more policing of even (straight?) white dudes sartorial decisions? Or maybe is this sartorial policing only possible from within a framework where only the fashion forward, whose sexuality is always already called into question by virtue of being 'fashion forward', wear the Thom Browne suit silhouette?

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  42. I think most of us conflate in one way or another, no? Probably an evolutionary survival mechanism from way back when.

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  43. My husband and I were talking about this just last night!

    Less about how redonkulous it looks (which I think it does), but more about (as others have mentioned) how kids have been doing this since the '90s! What other "fashion/fad" has lasted as long?

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  44. Where I live (urban California) this look has been around a lot longer than 10 years! I think it's incredibly stupid and ugly and I can't believe it's stuck around for so long, but I certainly wouldn't outlaw it! On the other hand, I too have had the butt in the face on the bus experience, and that is not OK. Anyone who insists on exposing his bottom needs to walk/limp to his destination and stay off crowded buses!

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  45. Not a fan of the saggy pants. I was once told that it's a prison thing and it signifies that you're a fellow inmate's special friend. I don't know if this is true or not but I now associate saggy pants with that.

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  46. As "fadshion" goes, it'll go away, be replaced by something else just as ridiculous and come back, re-interpreted for fashionistas 15 years from now by the new upcoming designer with his pulse on the street and be all the rage. Meanwhile, people will look at their yearbooks hollering and ROTFL.
    Oh look what have you here: Acid wash jeans!

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  47. you know surprisingly in my country the sagging pant is nor being replaced by the too-tight pant. Men here have resorted to buying women jeans or pants because they have more stretch and then have a tailor take in the legs so it is ridiculously tight...sometimes tighter than some women skinny jeans. And guess what as tight as it is they still manage to wear it under their asses

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  48. I have always associated the low pants with prison. I was told it signified that the guy was available and looking for a buddy (wink wink). I don't want to see any area that normal underwear doesn't cover; male and female As for the low riders, if we can tell that they need a shave down there; I don't want to see that either. I also don't want to see everything a woman has up top! I may sound like a prude, but I did wear halter tops and short shorts when young, but all of the important parts stayed covered.

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  49. I think the super baggy pants are goofy, but whatever. Low riders that expose someone's crack or G-string, not really what I want to see either. Don't like, don't wear. Leather biker jackets and jeans used to be construed as "gang wear" and plenty of folks wear those. These are all trends, the next generation may just reject it all entirely.

    As for the Japanese photos, no Peter, there's nothing raunchy written there. Just asks "...are these highschool girls' skirts short?" There was probably discussion on the TV program (they're stills) about a school's dress code policy and checking length via measurement. Over here in Japan, it's common for high school girls to leave the house with a slightly-above-knee-length skirt, meeting uniform code of school and possibly parents, and then they duck into the nearest restroom and hike it up and fold over the waistband so the skirt becomes quite short. Lots of panty peeping happening on stairs and escalators in train stations.

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  50. It is the job of young people with nothing better to do (like get good grades) to push the limits of fashion. It's the job of parents and other authority figures to set limits. That's how is has worked for several generations now. I see no reason to change.

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  51. The whole sagging pants thing has been in style since I was in high school. Even as a teenager they bothered me.

    Then I saw one of those saggy pants wearing dudes running from someone and the pants fell down and his face plowed into the concrete. Now I just consider them "Tools of Darwin".

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  52. I thought most responses were pretty predictable but really appreciated Angela's comment about how hobbling fashions have been restricting women for ages. This fashion of low pants and high boxers is harmless, ridiculous, but harmless.

    Who cares! I'd rather have kids wear baggy low trousers with boxers showing than a uniform with a gun, ANY DAY!

    Susan in Oakland.

    Ps lets see Cousin Cathy in some baggy pants!

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  53. PS want to clarify I respect and appreciate cops and soldiers, but can't get get past glib comments like ... my son has to "chase after a few of the saggy, baggy pants more often then not." Check those biases at the door please!

    Susan in Oakland

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  54. meh. I have so many other things to worry about that saggy pants, short pants and other people's butt cracks are far far down the list. If people want to wear things that make them looks silly, more power too them - I need a laugh to brighten my day every now and then...

    Rather than be shocked by some proprietary sense of offensiveness, let's be outraged at the offensiveness of geysers of oil spewing out into the gulf of mexico, or the fact that we're still "at war" nine years later or that millions of people like in dire poverty with no hope of ever getting free.

    sorry, I know that some heavy crap to have to think about...but seriously...outrage over having to see a little crack? Where's the perspective here?

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  55. Peter wrote:

    Then again, not so long ago women wore shoes they could hardly walk in as a sign of high status: they didn't HAVE to walk, you see.

    I wonder if something similar is going on...

    -------------

    I think so. Dressing like toddlers is like saying "I don't have to grow up". It's truth in advertising.

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  56. Sorry, did not mean to offend with my comment. It WAS glib!

    Who knows how this fad really started. As many mentioned, it was first associated (although may or may not have started with) gang members. Gang activity is killing people every day. It is not something to be taken lightly or laughed about.

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  57. There is a little rap song out there called pull you pants up. It's funny and cute. My kids use to sing it. I have at least two who now wear ther own down low. I feel like I'm forever yelling "PULL YOUR PANTS UP" but truly I know or hope it's a faze and they grow out of it. It really doesn't bother me I just think it looks bad.

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  58. I am continually amazed as to how long the baggy pants look has managed to stick around, it has to be 15 years or more! In NYC recently some guy killed himself fleeing from an apt he robbed when his pants fell down & tripped him up and off a fire escape & re-enforcing all the thuggy associations of the under-the-butt look in one fell swoop. The Thom Brown/PeeWee look is limited - but it could take years to show it's true influence - at the opposite end of the spectrum, (I do wonder if the guys springing for short $4000.00 suits are getting a little extra fabric left inside?)

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  59. I actually don't want to know that my boss wears boxer shorts with hearts on them, I really don't. As I wouldn't like to know if my boss wears a red lace bras in a matching set. The same is actually true of my coworkers. And the random guy at the station. And it seems really uncomfty, like a hobble skirt. But if you want to please do, just know that respect, not as a human being that you get in any case, but a competent boss, coworker and decision maker will be harder to earn. Because you already made some very bad decisions like buying the pants, wearing them and not thinking of your underwear to call your judgment into question.

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  60. In the gym at my chiropractor, I overheard my chiropractor and a young male patient he was instructing. He was being told about the physical implications of wearing pants to low. You have to tilt your pelvis to keep up your clothes and if you do that every day for a long time, your back ends up crooked AND you are likely to suffer from erectile dysfunction and problems with endurance in bed because the muscles just don't work right any more. It probably doesn't go that wrong for everybody since the trend is still around but it sure doesn't sound nice.

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  61. I like the way Paris dresses, its like how Britney did when she was like 19

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